BBB Dispute Ends in Huge Waste of Time

When we left off in Part Four we were still embroiled in a dispute being handled through the Better Business Bureau, or BBB. What we didn’t understand at the time was that businesses pay to be members of BBB. As a paying member of the northern Indiana BBB, it should come as no surprise that the complaint was closed in favor of Forest River.

One of the last emails Henry Sears sent to the BBB dispute was this email. Remember it, because you will see it again.

A Message From Super Springs International

When it became apparent that we weren’t getting anywhere with Forest River, Lippert or the BBB, we reached out to Super Springs International – the makers of Sumo Springs – for their input on our situation. It took a while (and a strongly worded email) to get a response back, but we did get one, and it confirms what we already suspected.

Mr. Coulter is Director of Sales for Super Springs International. As you can see, Super Springs does not approve of Forest River’s libelous allegations. This is also not surprising. But it is very refreshing to deal with a company who stands behind the design, construction, quality and benefit of their products.

But back to Forest River and Lippert

Lippert Remains Silent

You may recall the email that we sent to Lippert on May 3.

Since it had been 72 days, we decided to send another, based on the new information.

We will update you all in the event that Lippert responds.

UPDATE: Within two hours this post’s publication Lippert responded to the above email. They have requested more information, and are requesting our location so that they can dispatch technicians to do their own inspection. We will update you on this situation as it progresses.

Seeking Help from the Attorney General

After BBB proved to be a huge waste of time we also initiated a complaint with our Attorney General’s office. We provided links to parts one, two, three and four of our Forest River Fails saga for the AG to review. After a while we received this response from Forest River, via the AG’s office.

Remember the email that Henry Sears sent to the BBB complaint? This is the same email, verbatim. Mr. Sears still isn’t paying attention.

Attached to this response was a statement from the AG’s office that if we wanted to dispute any of Forest River’s comments that we had 30 days to do so before the case would be closed. Needless to say, we dispute Forest River’s comments, but we are withholding our response back to the Attorney General until we see what happens next.

Until Next Time

If you are considering getting into the RV life, you really need to understand just how bad the industry is; both in building the RVs in the first place, as well as how they handle customer service after the fact.

Don’t allow yourself to be treated this way. You spent too much money on your RV to have the people that built it tell you that it’s your fault that it broke.

Can you imagine if automobile manufacturers did this? How many trucks would Ford sell if the cab began to fall off the frame at 36,000 miles? That’s right, not many, and the NHTSA would be knocking down their door. Why are RV manufacturers not held responsible for building their junk?

Until next time!

The post Forest River Fails, Denies Responsibility – Part Five appeared first on Metaphysical Family.

The Defects Continue

We had noticed a bulge in the rear most portion of the passenger sidewall behind the slide. The bulge is (was) in the black aluminum skirting at the bottom of the wall which hides the wall seam and the frame rail. We don’t remember exactly when the bulge first appeared, but it was not there in February of 2022 when I was busy making skirts for the RV.

The bulge _was_ present in the fall of 2022, as can be seen in this picture from October.

The bulge had grown by February, but was still only a bulge at that time.

This is what the bulge looks like today. The video explains the rest.

As you can see, the first screw which backed out was one of the screws securing the bottom of the wall structure to the RV’s floor assembly. The RV’s floor assembly is then (supposed to be) bolted to the frame with the fasteners discussed in Part One and Part Two. Now the rest of this same line of screws which hold the sidewall to the floor assembly have begun to back out.

Will the RV make it back to our property? We honestly don’t know at this point, but we obviously hope so. Forest River still denies any responsibility for this damage or repair.

Forest River Fails, Denies Responsibility (Again)

If you recall the email that we sent back to Forest River after their denial, that email politely suggested that they review our case and reconsider. We thought that after we explained the situation with the frame checks having been done incorrectly that Forest River would tell us to find another shop to have the work redone.

But that’s not what happened.

We didn’t get any further responses from Forest River until I called LCI directly. After we had done so we sent the following email to Forest River.

Forest River did respond by EOD 4/7. This is what they sent.

Climbing the Ladder

Cheyenne Clark is the public interface to Forest River service. Since she is the only public point of contact for the service department, anyone wishing to communicate with Forest River must go through her. At least, that’s how Forest River would prefer it to be. But the power of the internet can help a person find all kinds of useful information.

Did you know that there are websites that keep track of companies’ boards of directors, C-level executives, etc? They sometimes include contact information for those company executives. Many of the people in this story are on LinkedIn as well.

We sent the following email as our final direct email communication about our case to Forest River. We sent it to Cheyenne Clark, whom you already know. We also sent it to two other people: Peter Liegl – Forest River’s founder and CEO, and David Youmans, Forest River’s C-level “Director of Ethics and Compliance”.

We were hopeful that this email to high level executives would get our case the attention it deserved.

Our hopes were shattered when we received this email from Henry Sears, who we presume is somewhere in middle management; above Cheyenne Clark and Chad Cook, but below the C-levels that we emailed above. Was Mr. Sears willing to help, or even discuss our case further?

No, he only doubled down again.

Lippert is Silent

Forest River keeps telling us to discuss the case with Lippert. it would be great if we could do that. Unfortunately, Lippert has been very elusive when we ask them for their denial and the reasons for it in writing. The last email we sent to Lippert was this one. We are still waiting for an answer…

And remember – ALL OF THIS centers around this supposed frame issue which neither Forest River nor LCI want to talk about, and which RV Masters has proven does not exist.

Refund or Replace

What a complete and total mess. Am I right?

When all this started we would have been very happy to have the crack repaired so that we could continue our traveling adventure. After everything that has happened, it seems that wasn’t meant to be. People say things like “The Lord moves in mysterious ways …”. As I have said before, that has not been my experience. I find it to be downright overt at times.

With the continued problems we are having with this RV we do not feel that it can be repaired. We have resigned ourselves to moving out of the RV and changing directions. Now we are hoping that the RV stays together long enough for us to get to our property. Once there it can sit stationary until we get the house built, but it can not continue to be used for travel camping in its condition.

With damage this severe we are seeking either a replacement unit or a refund. Even if this one can be saved we would never be able to trust it. How could we? Just take Forest River’s word for it because we have experienced so much honesty to this point?

To Be Continued

Thank you again to everyone who has come forward with their similar stories and support. There is a cynicism that we see both inside and outside the RV community too often. “It’s an RV. You should have known it was built as cheaply as they can make one. They have problems. That’s just part of it.”

I am not sorry that I refuse to accept this failure as normal, or just part of owning an RV. This is not normal wear and tear. The body of an RV should not fall off in the first year. That’s not a normal thing that happens. Our unit is bad, and Forest River should feel bad. But they don’t.

We have strength in numbers. The more of us there are, the more reasonable it becomes to hear terms like “class action” being thrown around. If you own a Forest River RV and have a similar experience, do not accept this as normal. If this is normal for Forest River, Forest River needs a new normal in a bad way.

Check back for the next – and hopefully final – episode of Forest River Fails, Denies Responsibility. We are living the next episode as we type this one. We will update you all as soon as we have more to share.

Update: Part four is now available.

The post Forest River Fails, Denies Responsibility – Part Three appeared first on Metaphysical Family.

At the conclusion of Forest River Fails, Denies Responsibility – Part One we knew these things:

• Our RV does not have a frame issue, despite Forest River’s insistence to the contrary.
• Our RV was built using fasteners which either:
  • Weren’t tightened appropriately at the factory, or
  • Were tightened at the factory, but backed off from the tight position because they were not the proper fastener for this connection.
• Forest River claims that they have no responsibility. They claim this based on statements apparently made by LCI (Lippert) centering around the Sumo Springs we added to the RV.

But as you read in episode one, there is no issue with our frame, and there never was. But we are not alone in this failure.

There are Others

After we received the denial email from Cheyenne Clark, we sent our response to Forest River.

^{[Update: The SuperSprings link above is no longer valid. Anyone wishing to view that page should view the internet archive version located here. Thanks Wes! The FTC link is valid and located here. ]}

We mention another RV that we know Forest River had repaired. That RV belonged to a very kind gentleman named Kevin that we met through Facebook. Kevin’s 2019 model 36BHQ had failed in almost exactly the same way that ours had.

I spent a while talking with Kevin about his issue. Kevin let me know that it took a very long time to get it resolved. Kevin had to involve his State’s Attorney General’s office, the Better Business Bureau and the process still took _two years_ to be resolved. Forest River had fixed his issue under “good faith” in 2022, over _two years_ after Kevin’s “warranty” expired.

Since this whole mess began we have met several more people online who have this exact issue with their Forest River RV’s as well. Most of those have either not begun a warranty/”good faith” repair claim, or have just begun the process.

Forest River is obviously aware that this is a recurring problem with these units. I hope that we are not the first to link the loose body bolts with the sidewall failures for them. If we are, we also have a simple solution for the problem.

Use of Incorrect Fastener

Forest River uses serrated flange nuts to fasten the body bolts to the frame. Anyone with even a little mechanical experience (or a Forest River RV) knows that this is not the correct fastener for this job. Perhaps the nuts were spun up finger tight on the studs by the worker who drilled the holes in the floor, and then left for the next guy. Perhaps the timer on our unit ran out before those fasteners could be tightened. We can only speculate as to whether the fasteners were tightened properly at the factory.

But let’s assume that the flange nuts were tightened at the factory. If any of that structure compresses (which it really shouldn’t) during shakedown there is nothing to prevent the flange nut from vibrating and shaking itself more loose. If only there were a fastener that could be used which would stay in place once it’s tightened, even if the things it’s holding get compressed. There is! The correct fastener would be the nylon lock nut.

There are 24 of these bolts exposed on the 36BHQ. When purchased at Fastenal by an individual the price difference is a mere $5.80. Forest River undoubtedly has the purchasing power to get that down even lower. Or they could build that into the sale price of each unit. I am sure the retail customer that ends up with the unit would happily pay the $6 to know that the body won’t fall off their RV. We certainly would have.

[Update: The SuperSprings link above is no longer valid. Anyone wishing to view that page should view the web archive page here.]

If you own a Forest River RV, it’s worth checking these body studs. We have met several people online since posting part one of this story who have checked their body studs to find the bolts loose as well.

Join “Sabre RV Camper by Forest River” on Facebook to follow this thread.

* ^{Join “Sabre RV Camper by Forest River” and “Sabre 36BHQ Owners Group” on Facebook to follow these conversations.}

Stay Tuned!

Despite the overwhelming evidence, Forest River has maintained that they have no responsibility for this failure. We maintain that they do. How will it all shake out?

Don’t miss the next installment in episode three of Forest River Fails, Denies Responsibility!

_{This post may contain affiliate links from which we may earn a small commission at no additional expense to you. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.}

The post Forest River Fails, Denies Responsibility – Part Two appeared first on Metaphysical Family.

We were in the middle of the water intrusion repair when we discovered this new fresh hell. We had developed a crack in the wall of our fifth wheel where the passenger side slide box is located. We had heard many horror stories about what the crack could mean. Was it safe to move the RV? What could we do to stop it from cracking further? Who would be paying for the fix? Would we have to take the RV to Indiana to get it fixed? Would we have to stop traveling?

We made first contact with the manufacturer of our RV – Forest River Inc, of Elkhart, Indiana on February 3rd, 2023 through their online contact form describing what we had found and asking for guidance on how we should proceed.

We received the initial reply from the Sabre, Owner Relations Representative, Cheyenne Clark two business days later. The email tone was pleasant, and Forest River seemed to be interested in helping to resolve our issues. We were told that we would need to take our RV to an authorized dealer or service center to determine the cause, concern, and correction and we were given a list of approved dealers and service centers in our area.

The next morning Brittany began calling every service center and dealership on the list trying to find someplace that could preform the diagnostics Forest River required in a reasonable time frame. Unfortunately, due to the timing of this issue (beginning of the 2023 camping season) we were having difficulties finding anywhere that could get us in before 2 months and we even called a shop which had a 6 month wait. Thankfully after explaining our situation we were able to find a service center from the list who could help us get the process started.

RV Masters, Houston TX

We took the RV to RV Masters, in Houston, TX on 2/13/23. RV Masters was on the list of authorized service centers that Forest River had provided to us. RV Masters did not have time to get our RV into the shop for the repair at the time, but indicated that they had repaired similar failures in the past, and would be happy to start the paperwork for our warranty claim. RV Masters did exactly that – they took pictures of the damage and initiated the warranty claim with Forest River. RV Masters also told us that they had repaired many RVs with issues like ours, and that the most likely cause was a broken weld inside the wall. Why would the weld break? Because it wasn’t welded correctly to begin with.

Forest River must have known the cause as well. They immediately began looking for reasons to deny any responsibility for the failure, or the repair.

Forest River requested additional pictures of our hitch, suggesting that it “looks like a gooseneck adapter”. It isn’t, and never has been. We pull our fifth-wheel RV with a B&W Companion 25K, which is not only the correct type of hitch for this job, it’s arguably the best (pickup) fifth-wheel hitch available today.

Forest River also noticed that we utilized a cargo carrier, and asked for detailed information about the carrier, as well as what we carried on it. It was this one from Harbor Freight, and we hauled a Total Gym on it.

Finally, Forest River requested that Lip Sheet 0104 (Frame Camber Check Worksheet) be filled out and returned to Forest River, who would then pass it along to LCI – aka Lippert Components.

RV Masters replied to this request from Forest River. RV Masters stated that our RV was not at RV Masters as we had left with the RV. RV Masters further stated that they would only be able to provide the information if we were able to bring the RV there and leave it for both diagnosis and repair. At the time, RV Masters’ wait list was six weeks long. For reasons that should be obvious to any of our readers, this was not an option. Fate has a funny sense of humor sometimes though, because we would end up back at RV masters almost exactly six weeks later.

Lip Sheet 0104

Since RV Masters couldn’t provide the information Forest River was requesting, we provided it. We took the pictures that Forest River had requested, and I filled out the Lip Sheet 0104. The procedure is not complicated or difficult, as you can see below.

Forest River did not accept my worksheet because it did not come from an authorized service center. I expected this, but I am glad that I was exposed to the worksheet and instructions before going to the second authorized service center.

Princess Craft RV

The second authorized repair facility we went to was Princess Craft RV in Houston Texas. They had availability to get us in straight away, so we hitched up and drove an hour through downtown Houston to reach them.

Princess Craft RV deals in small RVs and truck campers. Our truck and RV took up as much room on their parking lot as their RV inventory. Perhaps this should have been a sign to us to look for another shop, but we had driven an hour to get there.

The service manager at Princess Craft RV at the time – Gus Guerrero – was friendly enough, and seemed interested in helping us get the rig fixed. We explained what had led us to being there, and what work we needed done.

Forest River had already spoken with Gus as well.

When the technicians came to the parking lot to perform the frame check – because the shop wasn’t big enough, even if it had been empty – we knew right away that something was rotten. The techs measured to the bottom of the axle and made the blocks appropriately, but then clamped them to the frame incorrectly. If you read the worksheet and pay attention to item five, “the bottom of the 2 x 4s must hang below the lowest point of the axles”. Apparently Princess Craft RV didn’t read the instructions. Or maybe they did, but had other direction from Forest River.

The first trip to Princess Craft RV resulted in this Lip Sheet 0104 worksheet.

We knew that the sheet would be rejected as soon as it was handed to us. All four corners of the frame must measure the same. We left Princess Craft RV having accomplished nothing, except to have to pay $150 for a complete waste of time. We expected the sheet to be rejected, and to have to locate yet another service center.

The sheet was rejected, but that was no surprise. We were surprised when we received a phone call from Gus at Princess Craft RV. Gus stated that Forest River was asking for additional checks. Gus requested that we bring the RV back to them for these additional checks. We speculate that the additional checks were not required, and that this was an excuse to get the RV back to them so that they could perform Lip Sheet 0104 correctly. We were only half correct.

When we returned to Princess Craft RV they performed TI-089, which measures the axles for toe-in and alignment. How this relates to the crack in the sidewall is anyone’s guess. In addition to TI-089, Princess Craft RV did perform the Lip Sheet 0104 again. They also performed the check incorrectly the second time.

Since we didn’t want to have to come back for a third time, we spoke with Gus to let him know that we knew his techs were performing the check incorrectly, and asked him to intervene. Instead of stopping the work, Gus informed us that it didn’t really matter, and that they would make sure the worksheet had the numbers necessary to get our claim approved. Gus then admitted what we already knew – that their shop was not equipped to deal with repairs on our unit. Gus assured us that once the claim had been approved he would help us find a shop to do the repairs.

But that’s not what happened. It is also worth noting that Gus is no longer employed by Princess Craft RV, though we do not know why.

Warranty Claim Denied

A few days after we left Princess Craft RV we received an email from Cheyenne Clark at Forest River.

Isn’t that convenient? Princess Craft RV provided Forest River with a completely erroneous frame check worksheet, and apparently Lippert made a decision based on that completely erroneous and invalid worksheet. But we don’t have a frame problem, and never did.

We did reach out to the makers of SumoSprings – the “aftermarket modification to the axles” mentioned in Cheyenne’s email. SuperSpring does have this convenient page all about what SumoSprings actually are, how they do not modify the vehicle’s suspension in the way that Forest River suggests, and how it is illegal for vehicle manufacturers to deny warranty claims because of aftermarket modification alone. The FTC has a thing or two to say about it as well.

But that’s all fairly irrelevant since there is no issue with the aftermarket modification, because there is no issue with the frame. There never was an issue with the frame other than the one made by Forest River through Princess Craft RV.

Back to RV Masters

This is what the Lip Sheet 0104 looks like when it is performed by someone who can follow basic instructions. This Lip Sheet 0104 was completed for us by RV Masters in Houston. We returned there in April after Forest River and Princess Craft RV put us in this position. RV Masters checked the frame in every conceivable way and found no issues whatsoever.

The body bolts mentioned in the RV Masters email above are the bolts which secure the body of the RV to the frame. We have a video to explain.

But this is not the end of the story. Don’t miss the next installment in this ongoing drama.

The post Forest River Fails, Denies Responsibility – Part One appeared first on Metaphysical Family.